Quick, name a few recent popular movies where the two top-billed stars are female.
Here’s a miscellaneous survey I just did, tallied by gender of top billed/second billed star:
| M/M | M/F | F/M | F/F | |
| 20 biggest movies of 2007 | 10 | 10 | 0 | 0 |
| 20 biggest movies of 2006 | 11 | 7 | 0 | 2 |
| 20 biggest movies of 2005 | 11 | 7 | 2 | 0 |
| 20 biggest movies of 2004 | 10 | 9 | 1 | 0 |
| 20 biggest movies since 1977 | 15 | 5 | 0 | 0 |
| IMDb Top 20 of All Time | 15 | 5 | 0 | 0 |
There were about 110 movies with a male lead and 5 with a female lead. Of the second-billed females, nearly all are written as love interests of the first-billed man. There were over sixty movies in the sample with two male stars top-billed. The only movies with two top-billed female roles, on the other hand, were The Devil Wears Prada and Scary Movie 4.
My cousin has been working on tallying (by hand!) all movies with two top-billed female stars. She reports that there are staggeringly few of them, and the roles fall mainly in two genres: mother-daughter bonding movies and horror films. Hollywood is not creating female heroes.
Suppose we had a generic Michael Bay/Jerry Bruckheimer movie with some evil organization (say, a shadow government headed by Dick Cheney or whatever) bent on destroying something (say, the internet). Who would you rather see battling their way through the system to stop them — another basic Bruce Willis/Denzel Washington/Vin Diesel character? Or River Tam, Sarah Connor, Lola from Run Lola Run, or Beatrix Kiddo? Not only could the film industry suck less in the examples it sets, we could have some awesome movies.
Notes: If anyone wants to expand my list into a more comprehensive and authoritative survey, I’d love to see the results. I did my tally by hand, using The Numbers for the basic lists and stars, plus IMDb and Wikipedia to get a consensus on billing order.
its tricky. so tricky. hollywood has run out of ideas (if you dont belive this statement, then you havent been paying attention). so now they, in desperation, have begun seeking out other options (namly books and comics) to find things to make movies about (that will, mabye, make money). this will allow some smaller storytellers to break into the market, if they have good ideas, that would probley not have been made even 10-15 years ago.
but the trick with f/f leading roles is that it really isnt out there that much. i truely have a hard time nameing a F/F lead story (thinking beyond movies at this point) that is “top twenty” material. admitedly, i havent seen anything, or even nearly everything. but still, the stories arent out there… or at least they arent done well, or well recived. they are not “must see” X(movies, comics, anime).
however. i do like the idea. i enjoy those stories with strong female leads. kill bill was quite interesting. i would love to see a movie that star’s “river tam” instead of (generic male stereotyped action hero). i have had an idea of a story, with a female lead, myself. but its still swirling in they abyss of my mind.
If you want to see these stories truely come about and be done well, there is only one option: Go out and do it. YOU will have to be the director/screen writer/ producer. Hollywood will not bring us “river tam Vs the fem-enator”. well, mabye they will, but it wont be pretty. and you cant expect them to do it right. Go out, and create these stories. write a book, make a comic. Go for it.
First Up:
I am not smart like you guys, okay. So don’t start berating on me for that.
Second:
No, I have not read all the posts, but I doubt I’m really bringing anything new to the discussion anyway.
All I have to say is that I think there actually should be more female leads in movies. I mean, gender equality/inequality is kind of sketchy as it is- what’s sexist, what’s chivalary, etc. But some of the stuff on here is getting way out of hand- I think my favourite quotes have to be the ones that said “Woman are simply no good in movies.” and “Girls just don’t kick ass in real life.”
It’s just so totally illogical and blatant that you know no amount of explanation will change the fact that someone thinks like that. And it really makes me sad that people still think like that.
Luckily, all the feminists on here are there to cheer me up. Because I know for myself that woman can act, _and_ kick ass. I’ve personally been told I do both. :) Thank you, Cadence.
But as an aspiring actor, it is slightly shocking to see the results.
And xkcd, you should fight the sexuality isssue. I can remember a few weeks ago when everyone was discussing something about two characters kissing- personally, I didn’t really notice or care if they were m/f, m/m, or f/f. Maybe I’m just more accepting of people because of my own bisexuality.
But I do think that it would be a great idea for you to have a non-hetro character featured.
Anyway, I just gotta finish up with replying personally to comments that were too good to leave:
“Some Dude”: Wow. It’s like you read my mind. You’re talking to a girl who likes pretty much everything from punk-rock to alt to death metal. And guess what? There’s no adrenaline rush like a horror movie. I love them. Guess what else? What with that attitude, you are never coming anywhere _near_ me. Let me tell you now; pretty much any independant girl who likes rock music can and will, kick our ass if you ever, ever talk to her like that.
“Dom”: You know what? You’re right. You’re so right to tell someone what they should and shouldn’t be doing on their own site. And yes, you know what? People just shouldn’t deal with issues like this, should they? No. They should just leave anything that isn’t to your tastes unmentioned. XKCD has every right to discuss sexism and other heavyweight issues on his site. More power to him.
“Belial”: …Yeah. I kinda quit the internet for that too.
>>Gap Says:
>>>Presumably you need a male and female lead, otherwise the two >>>leads just don’t connect with each other.
Why not? I mean, I don’t want to be attacking because you’re simply making a point. But, what’s wrong with a movie that doesn’t involve two main characters falling in love? Hell, what’s wrong with a movie that has a same-sex pairing as it’s main charactes?
And, phirelure.
Yeah, I know I’m proving your point. But, to be fair, I suppose a lot of men-well, boys- would take it personally if you told them that their comment displayed a huge lack of education, copious amounts of sexism, and, you know, that they were a total jerk.
Rock on, xkcd, and thanks. (=
…Curious. Very curious.
Is your cousin’s name Cynthia Dickison by any chance? An article to the same effect appeared in Twin Cities Star Tribune (MN) today. Like, really. It was very strange…
What? we are gay for men. Woman never hace power
Everyone remembers Sarah Connor. No one remembers my favorite female action hero – Ripley (Signorney Weaver)? Sigh, guess I’m old.
What about female villains? It’s my personal opinion that it takes more acting ability to pull off a convincing bad guy than a convincing good guy, and both Meryl Streep and Tilda Swinton pulled it off fantastically.
Another observation: Movie women in distress (usually in stereotypical action films playing stereotypical love interests to stereotypical male heroes) sound *exactly like* they’re having an orgasm. I can’t tell if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.
River Tam vs. Darth Cheney. I would sell BOTH of my kidneys on the black market to see that. Living on dialysis would be worth it.
[...] I didn’t realize I was looking for. Check out this bloggers post on female leads in film: xkcd Posted in Uncategorized. Tags: film, sexism, [...]
What about Hairspray?
John Travolta as a girl and the chubby girl? I’m pretty sure this one count as a F/F Movie!
I know I’m late to the party (as usual), but I had to respond to “Girls just don’t kick ass in real life.”
Tell that to the coworker I chased out of my office with a bullwhip. No, it wasn’t a joke.
Give me your name and address and I’ll give you a demonstration.
How sad that she’s remember as “the chubby girl,” instead of an amazing actress.
Just my two cents, and then I’m going to bed.
I thought the whole point of feminism, or equality, was that anyone could choose a productive lifestyle and not be judged for it. That a person can choose what role fits them best instead of relying on what society role is best for them.
I’m a stay-at-home-mom, and I choose this profession until my children are grown. I could have chosen to be anything, but this is what I wanted for myself. It’s a hard job, and I’m lucky to have a husband who acknowledges that instead of just expecting me to fill this role.
As far as movies go, I would rather watch a kick-awesome action film that had a good plot than a chick-flick any day. Most women I know agree with me. On the other hand, my hubby enjoys romances and dramas. We both agree there needs to be more F/F or F/M roles that follow “The Rules.”
Well, I must go, my son is teething and not happy.
The Alien films have a female lead that kicks ass and takes names. Thanks for noting this xkcd… the pathetic lack of real female characters in Hollywood that have an actual character outside their relation to a male lead is something worth noting.
Can you say Samus Aran? Not a movie, I know, and not the most female of characters, but it might make a good movie. It would be intersting to see the balance of this same phenomenon in video games.
couldn’t make it through all the comments here so i apologize if this has been said before. but i just want to say thank you so fucking much for making this blog post — there’s a real sensation of “xkcd makes it real” among my group of friends and … yeah, it was kind of awesome to see a white man in male-dominated fields talk about this.
i don’t want a movie about feelings. i don’t want a movie with a lady in revealing clothes, seducing her way to the top. (hello, mr & mrs. smith. a fucking knife oven?) i want a movie in which LUCY mcclane kicks ass and takes names, and isn’t ridiculously oversexualised (though god knows i don’t mind t&a) and isn’t ridiculously overemotional. and you know what? it would sell. but no one would ever make it.
yes. of course. there’s market research out there that says that boys won’t buy stuff with (un-naked) girls on it, but girls will buy stuff with boys on it. the reason for that is that there is SO MUCH marketed to boys and SO LITTLE marketed to girls that we are FORCED to watch movies about men if we don’t just want to sit at home crying into our ice cream all day. it’s not like we have some big penis envy shtick going on.
okay. this got too angry. my main point was, thank you mr. munroe. seriously. thank you.
>>Gap Says:
>>>Presumably you need a male and female lead, otherwise the two >>>leads just don’t connect with each other.
>>Why not? I mean, I don’t want to be attacking because you’re simply
>>making a point. But, what’s wrong with a movie that doesn’t involve two
>>main characters falling in love? Hell, what’s wrong with a movie that has
>> a same-sex pairing as it’s main characters?
Apparently you haven’t heard of puns.
“Can you say Samus Aran? Not a movie, I know, and not the most female of characters, but it might make a good movie. It would be intersting to see the balance of this same phenomenon in video games.”
Well, there’s Samus, Lara Croft, and Mrs. Pac-Man. I’m not exactly sure though that you could really narrow a lot of games down to two lead characters, particularly sports and fighting games, or RPGs. Does Zelda count as a lead? Does Aeris? Colette?
[...] Link to xkcd blog on films with two female leads. Link to feministing smackdown of sexist pig. [...]
I think if we still had the old studio system, more female-female movies would get made. I don’t know if they’d all be “Whatever Happened to Baby Jane”, but more would be made because the studios would keep the actresses working.
Under the current Summer/Christmas Blockbuster seasons, everything has to be maximized. If it doesn’t make a lot of money, it won’t get made. Occasionally, experimentally, one will get made. It made do reasonably well or it might stink. But it won’t be blockbuster material, so they’ll go back to the tried and true … until that goes down in flames and they try something else.
It might be better to look at the average movies. Or at the middle of the list. You’ll find the movies that aren’t packaged as much.
Big Business is one of my faves – I feel like back in the late 80s and 90s, Disney (and others, i suppose) was big on releasing comedies with lots of strong female characters. No longer!
SORRY… *Blag* on.
Studio system? Wuzzat?
hrm i just realized the problem with the internet someone states a problem and everyone goes on blablablbala blalbalbla while you all preach about how much sexism sucks in a blag (although really good has a very limited audience) and how HOLLYWOOD should do something about it and you think that you are actually doing something by complaining. maybe instead of complaining you actually do something. you could for instance pour hundreds of millions into making a wonder woman movie or a third tomb raider or a terminator to go between two and three like you want Hollywood to. but really nobody out there is because that would mean that you had to do something in real life and risk your own money on something that statistics show. will. flop.
if any of you can actually prove me wrong and tell me how you have done anything to fix the problem of not enough good female movies being made (more that just complaining). i am ready to be wrong
i do realize that that i just did the whole complaining thing without really doing anything yeah whatever.
As pointed out above, Disney’s “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” is F/F (Snow White and the Queen…)
… but I’ll further point out that Disney’s “Cinderella” is also F/F (Cinderella and Lady Tremaine.)
Both instances of a mother attempting to stab her daughter in the back (one literally, the other figuratively.)
What I love about xkcd (no, that’s not a movie with a F/F-lead) is the ability to bring together high-tech-geekdom with things like feminism. I didn’t read every comment, but my guess is that even if one takes into account all the “you ignored this” and “look also at these” movies, the gender ratio is still somewhere in 95 % male-lead and 5 % female-lead. Which is a pity.
Another interesting statistics would be M/F-leads that are not love-stories.
Another unrelated factoid: at some SF workshop or other I heard a presentation in which it was postulated that if you have a strong female character (in SF movies), she never will make it to the end (unless there is a marriage/love-story). But the independent woman — as a rule — dies.
*Yawns* What? Hmm, I’m more curious as to why you want realism or even just equality out of hollywood. They’re selling to an audience they know, I don’t think they’d make too many of the sort of film you’re suggesting because who would be the producer? Nice thought, but I don’t see it happening without somebody taking a huge risk in hollywood. And what’s so wrong with a female lead becoming interested in a male lead? Doesn’t that happen in reality? I think the new ‘Get Smart’ film will be a new version of this if they stick to the classic formula, the guy’s a bumbler, she’s brilliant.
I dunno, I’m a pragmatist. I’m also a politically retired conservative.
Actually, now I wish I hadn’t read this blog, because it seems like it wants drama.
Does it not ever seem like when Hollywood is trying to create a strong female character that their whole purpose is to create a strong female character as opposed to a character we as viewers feel is strong?
For example, Ripley of Alien fame was a character that I felt was genuinely strong, she happened to be a woman.
Whereas Lara Croft (although perhaps not a great example since the film was based on a video game) comes across to me as an artificial effort to create a strong female character. That being said, Angelina Jolie is a beautiful woman but she also exudes strength in a way that Denzel, Bruce Willis, Brad Pitt or Clive Owen might. Another example of a seemingly artificial strong female character would be UltraViolet. Trinity is a genuinely strong character in The Matrix, but has to take a backseat to Neo–The Oracle even divinely prophesies that she will fall in love with The One.
If a woman was an action hero, they would assume she can’t/doesn’t fight as hard or use guns as much, so she would have inexplicable kung fu skills.
It doesn’t help that Hollywood has a hard time making strong, interesting female characters even in supporting roles. How many Sarah Connors are there? Not many. They’re making a Wolverine movie, and a Magneto movie. It’s a shame they didn’t see Storm as anything more than the Wonderful WeatherGirl or perhaps there’d be a movie about her.
It’s also possible that male screenwriters just have a hard time writing good female characters without going in a certain direction, and the ones who can write well aren’t able to get these scripts into the Hollywood blockbuster machine.
“It’s also possible that male screenwriters just have a hard time writing good female characters without going in a certain direction, and the ones who can write well aren’t able to get these scripts into the Hollywood blockbuster machine.”
It’s not like there’s a huge amount of variety in blockbuster male characters, though it is more than for females.
“It’s a shame they didn’t see Storm as anything more than the Wonderful WeatherGirl or perhaps there’d be a movie about her.”
I think they learned the hard way not to combine superheroettes and Halle Berry (sp?), when making Catwoman.
You know, you really shouldn’t have mentioned Bruce Willis in your list of “Good Ole’ Boys,” because I honestly think I’d probably pick him over almost any lady.
Though if you could get Bruce to pair up with Janeane Garofalo in a non-traditional way, I totally wouldn’t complain. That’s practically porno.
>>Shan: It’s a shame they didn’t see Storm as anything more than the Wonderful WeatherGirl or perhaps there’d be a movie about her.
Just want to say THANK THE GODS. If they shat on the X-Men franchise any more by giving Halle Berry such prominence in any X-Men movie, I would be done with it.
Seriously, she was only cast as eye candy, and she does Ororo Munroe absolutely no justice. She doesn’t even pull the part off convincingly, despite how much it’s *not* like Storm. Grr.
Holding out hope for Rogue and Jubilee… So far, no luck.
Also, Trinity kicked ass in the first Matrix movie. And then subsequently became more and more co-dependent, jealous, and I’d even say unbalanced. Kind of like all the other characters. I guess they weren’t “real” enough and had to be humanized more. Sad sad sad.
I agree, Halle Berry was the wrong choice from the beginning, but that was made worse with poor writing and no character development or background.
I find it alarming that they even made Rogue selfishly give up her powers and no longer let her be who she is, as a sacrifice for her love of Bobby Drake. This could’ve been okay, but she let her friends and fellow X-Men fight in their Last Stand on their own.
Jean Grey was always caught in the middle between Cyclops and Wolverine, but then when she became the Phoenix she was just bitchy with bad makeup rather than much of a character.
The best female mutant throughout the trilogy was Mystique. Strong, deadly–very much a woman–blue, and intelligent. I would see a spinoff movie about her.
Yes, Trinity was wicked in the first movie. The only spark of coolness after that seemed to come in when she was dealing with the Merovingian “I don’t have time for this shit.”, however that scene as a whole was rather bogus.
Anyway, I didn’t mean to go off on a tangent, but you can see that these characters had potential, but never got a chance to be anything more, probably because they’re female.
Regarding the latest comic, I have a set of questions.
1: Have you done it?
2: If not, will you do it?
3: Can I do it?
4: If you were to do it, what sort of stats do you expect from it?
im going to entirely ignore the ongoing conversation and say
todays comic is f’in awesome
> Julius, if you said some of the stuff you’ve said here to me in person, I would punch you in the face.
If you laid a finger on me, I would break your fucking bones, you fucking crazy bitch. Then you would perhaps understand that brute force, or threat of brute force, does not prove the validity of any opinion. That, and you would be a paraplegic fucking crazy bitch.
Who were the only women to have their own film production studios in the 20th century? Clue: There were three.
Mary Pickford, Lucille Ball, and Oprah Winfrey
Shouldn’t the wheels me mounted with their axles crossing the centre? That would allow 0 turning circle rotation. You could also use just 3 wheels rather than 4 without loosing any freedom of movement.
While it’s your blog and you have the right to frame/restrict the question any way you choose… I would like to point out that there is a distinct difference between “billing” and “significance of the role” which has a distinct effect on your findings.
Billing is a marketing decision. Hypothetical example: On the Xena movie poster there’s a big shot of the butt-kicking heroine with a bad guy under each arm and one under her boot. The name Lucy Lawless is printed boldly across the top while Kevin Sorbo and Renee Oconnor get equal placement underneath the picture. Turns out, Kevin has a 5 minute appearance but gets featured placement in the credits because of his “huge” fanbase. Like I said, hypothetical.
Billing is also a huge contract issue and frequently related to the ego of the actor or his/her name-recognition value. Just saw “the Forbidden Kingdom” and noticed the nifty graphic trick used to give 100% equal screen weight to Jackie Chan and Jet Li. Both play an important supporting role, but it could be argued that Michael Angarano’s charter is the most important one in the movie. He definitely gets the most dialog.
My point? By basing your survey on popularity and BILLING, you potentially overlook a few films where the two most prominent characters are in fact female but for marketing reasons a man got second billing. A quick check of Crouching Tiger, for instance, shows Chow Yun Fat got top billing over the three females. He was a bigger star than Michele Yeoh but those women really were the movie.
By the way, I’m a 40ish female who would rather see Die Hard, LOTR, Aliens or Rumble in the Bronx (anything action and decent) than sit through the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants or Sex and the City (even though I get paid to see them).
Also, when you tally the most popular movies are you counting profits or ticket sales. Many family-friendly movies sell lots of tickets but don’t make as much as adult-oriented ones. Just a consideration.
Quite a few of Pedro Almodovar’s movies. I suppose that if you searched for good rather than the biggest movies you’d find more.
The problem is the same for any oppressed group. (I won’t say minority here, because females make up the majority of humans). You have pointed out the problem at the level of the blockbuster movie. Here are some counterexamples from the wider industry.
#1 Lesbian porn. I haven’t watched any myself, so I don’t know any titles. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_pornography#Lesbianism_in_contemporary_pornography doesn’t list any either, and that’s as far as I felt like exploring today.
#2 Shojo anime for little girls: Fruits Basket or Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch. Includes Shojo-ai (Girl love) and Maho-shojo (Magical girl): Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon
#3 Josei (big girl) anime: Gokusen or Honey and Clover
#4 Ecchi and hentai, including lesbian porn and (they tell me) “worse”
#5 Tenchi Muyo, a parody of harem anime. The title means “No need for Tenchi” and the action/adventure stars are female throughout most of the series.
Others have mentioned Thelma and Louise, Fried Green Tomatoes, and so on, but nobody has mentioned Clueless or Sense and Sensibility, or going back further, The Group.
For anybody who would like to create The Breakthrough Movie, I suggest Terry Pratchett’s Monstrous Regiment as the most extreme case available in a currently popular novel that takes known historical fact about as far beyond current cultural boundaries as one can imagine.
For those who claim that a female action lead is too unrealistic (and I agree in the case of Kill Bill), there are a number of real-world counterexamples. Two of the best are Boadicea and La Maupin (1670–1707), aka Julie d’Aubigny, a 17th century swordswoman and opera singer. (sic)
wow.
for all those of you suggesting “lesbian porn” as an answer to this problem? you’re part of the problem. but thanks for trying…
> Julius, if you said some of the stuff you’ve said here to me in person, I would punch you in the face.
>If you laid a finger on me, I would break your fucking bones, you fucking crazy bitch. Then you would perhaps understand that brute force, or threat of brute force, does not prove the validity of any opinion. That, and you would be a paraplegic fucking crazy bitch.
Wow. Way to destroy any shred of credibility you had left, you misogynist fuck.
(And for the record, I would totally ram my penis through your eye socket.)
> for all those of you suggesting “lesbian porn” as an answer to this problem? you’re part of the problem
Lesbian porn does VERY well and is loved by the majority of men, as well as a significant group of women. How can so many people be wrong? Perhaps the stick up your ass is the problem? Ever think about that?
[...] xkcd points out, with some numbers to back it up, that “Hollywood is not creating female heroes.” [...]
“#5 Tenchi Muyo, a parody of harem anime.”
By ‘parody of’, I think you mean ‘progenitor of’. Or at least, of most of the common tropes of the genre.
The problem with writing female characters well isn’t that it’s harder or even different. It’s that everyone has been taught from birth, to some extent, that men and women are different. I think a lot of the problem stems, therefore, from the fact that instead of thinking, “I need to write this strong character who happens to be female,” (mostly male) writers tend to think, “I need to write a woman who is also a strong character.”
I read a collection of tips for aspiring writers, and the piece of information that stuck with me was this: When faced with the problem of writing a character of the opposite gender, many authors will think, “But I don’t know how a [whatever gender you're not] person would think/feel/act/be.” The advice was, “You know how THIS [opposite gender] person will think/feel/act/be. You created him/her/whatever.” I think not enough people realize this.
> You know how THIS [opposite gender] person will think/feel/act/be. You created him/her/whatever.
You can make up whatever wacked out shit you desire, but it will not necessarily have verisimilitude, and THAT is what engages readers and audiences. Without verisimilitude, fiction falls flat.